In defense of religion...

[Dubird 6,815]

I've been seeing a trend lately that's been bugging me a lot. Not just here, but lots of places. As some of you probably know, I am a religious person. I'm not the type to push it on anyone, and if you're not religious or don't follow an organized religion or don't believe in any kind of god, that's fine. It's your choice, and as long as it's one you've made for yourself because you've thought about it and not just because it was pushed on you or that's what your parents believe, then I have no problem with that.

But what I'm seeing is not just people that don't believe, but people who hate those that do and want to spread that hatred. I'm not saying religion is perfect or for everyone. I'm certainly not saying that all religious people are awesome, because there are a lot of major assholes and douchebags in all religions, not just my own. There are people in all religions that spread hatred and ignorance with gay disregard for what it does to the world. But there are also people on the anti-religion side that do the exact same thing. Which is one of the things they condemn religion for doing. And that bothers me.

See, I consider myself an intelligent person. Ok, so I can't spell very well, but last time I took an IQ score it was close to genius level (not quite there, but a respectable score). I got a 3.9 GPA in high school, and went to college for 6 years and have two college degrees under my belt. And I believe in God. Technically, I define myself as a Christian, but that's just because that's the path I chose for myself. That doesn't invalidate any other path, even ones that don't follow any organized religion. So it really bothers me when people I consider friends lump every religious person into a 'stupid' category. Like no matter what I do in my life, they think I'm an idiot just because I have religious beliefs. I know, I shouldn't care what other people think and all that, and for strangers, I don't. It just really bothers me when someone that I like and respect doesn't seem to respect me or my choice. Not everyone that has religious beliefs is an idiot. Not everyone with religious beliefs is a sheep. There are a lot of intelligent, nice people that believe in some kind of god, that do try and help people and don't use religion as a crutch or excuse. But you don't hear about those people because they don't make the news. What you see are the fanatics and idiots that display the worst of humanity. Yet there are plenty more that you don't hear about that aren't fanatics or idiots, just people who believe there's something out there that's greater than us, and through that, have gained friends and family.

I guess what I'm trying to say here is that I'm tired of seeing everyone with religious beliefs lumped into one category. I'm tired of seeing other intelligent people spreading actual hatred and intolerance for a general belief system. After all, if spreading hatred and ignorance is one of the things you don't like about religion, why spread it yourself?

I know people are going to respond, be it with questions or comments. If you want to talk about this calmly, even if you disagree, or just want to ask a question, I'm more than happy to respond. If you're just going to flame me or start making rude comments, you'll be ignored. I'm not trying to do this to start any kind of flame war, and I know religion is kinda a touchy subject, but I just had to get this off my chest.

[HKofsesshoumaru 673]

I am christain to and I totally hear what you are saying. I have exprerinced some hate myself especially when people know u r christain they think you are going to push it on them. Im no bible thumper and believe what you want but don't hate me for being god loving. My mother is the biggest hatred spreader I think and worst of all she is family. She tells me she is ashamed I call my self christain because I am bi sexual (please I really dont want anyone's opinion on that or gay marriage). Like no matter what my kids choose to do I would never tell them Im ashamed of them. I believe in the bible and I believe god loves everyone no matter what your sexual preference is. Period. I will not teach my kids to be ashamed for being christain and to stand up for what you believe in. Lately people are so offended by the word God. Like they want to take it out of our schools and out of pledge to the flag. Its on our money for pete's sake! "In god we trust". God is the basis for AA (Alocholics anonymous) and thats a great program that has helped many people. I dont understand the hate. I really dont. Thats just me.

[Pchan 5,162]

I think that's a fair post Dubird. Applaud you for it.

I don't go to a fire temple as much as I'm supposed to, or pray everyday like I'm supposed to, but I believe in the core beliefs of my religion that's "good thoughts, good words, good deeds". Having said that, in a way, I'm glad my religion's in the minority of the populous and that it doesn't get picked on for whatever reasons like the 2 main religions talked about the most - Christianity and Islam.

I think it really depends on one's personal beliefs, and the nature of the person. I respect the concept of a child being given the right to choose his/ her religion rather than taking the religion of their parents/ guardians. At the same time, I also respect the concept of the child accepting the religion of his parents/ guardians, whether it's a forced action or not, it's the way of life. We look up to our parents for help, support, questions, answers in our infancy, and I don't see it wrong to take up what they're into - reference - religion related, not alcoholism or drugs. I grew up in a Zoroastrian household, and as I got older I had an initiation ceremony at the age of 9, at which age, I was well aware of what I wanted to do. Even now, as my parents look for a possible bride for me, I'm going to lean towards a girl of my religion because I feel it'll make me comfortable and I would like to do the things I did growing up with her, like going into a fire temple or having our kids take their initiation ceremony, and everything that goes with it. I'm sort of traditional that way, BUT if I fall in love with someone who's a Christian or Hindu or Muslim or any other religion, I'd go for it. The round-about point to my nonsensical post is that I personally respect anyone and everyone, and I believe there isn't anything wrong with parental guidance at an early age, if it isn't extreme. I have to be careful as I say that because there's a big difference and every person is different than his neighbor. So what someone perceives as forceful conversion, might not be the case in the eyes of the other person.

I think a year or 2 years ago at one of our Fanfests Lady and I were discussing the same thing, and she made me realize a few things and I found myself asking key questions. In my religion, the male child could have his initiation by the age of 9 and the girl child must have hers before she starts to have her periods. I think it'll be fair to say they'll be able to choose by then, and I personally am open to a situation where they grow up and decide it's not the path for them. It won't disappoint me, but if they change their names, I'll freggin kill them!! Hahahahahaha! There's a client who just walked in, they're like waiting for the attorney in the lobby, and my nose can tell they rode the subway, from this far X'D ... good I don't have a meeting with them.

I just read HK's post cos I got signed off while typing mine and logged back in ... about the hate, well, I look at it differently. Push a ball to the wall, and it'll come back to you. If you push it hard, it'll get back to you hard. We're not perfect, and it's safe to say there are forceful people on both sides, and there are some people who have to stand up for what they believe in. That's mistaken for the one-sided hate. What we don't realize is the way religion is forced into kids in school and how that's treated/ mistreated. It's fair to say if you or I or anyone with a conscience and care for their kids were in a similar situation, we would say "Hey, that's inappropriate" no? Now if the other side doesn't back down, will you? Maybe. Maybe not. The people who give it back to them are put in a wrong bracket of "haters" according to me, that's if they are put in that bracket. If such a person comes out and professes their belief that every person - child/ adult - has the right to choose their religion or not to have a religion, it isn't wrong. That's if no action is really extreme, because then you get a problem on your hands.

[DeathscytheX 9,732]

I am a christian. I believe in the Christ savior. I do not agree with church doctrine. I don't consider myself any denomination.

If people look down on my for my beliefs, they can go jump off a building. I really don't care. People can believe in whatever they choose to. If you want to believe in a higher being, or that we came from acid rain dripping off a rock... that's up to the individual. Hopefully they take the time to learn about it, that's really all that matters.

[Khellendross 1,260]

Not sure what I would call myself, Considering the Big three (Christian, Judaism, and Muslim) All worship the Same exact god (Yahweh, Jehovah, Christ, Allah, et al.) with different flavors of how to go about doing so, perhaps combining all three and renaming it Chrisewlim.

In all seriousness. I'd love for everyone to just get along and quit using someones race, sex, religion, sexual preference, or any of the million little things people like to use to push down another, we're all Earthlings here. That's not changing anytime soon.

[Flying_Monkey 500]

I say as long as you ain't knocking on my door on a Saturday morning to preach to me I don't care what your religion is or about... but once you wake me up its war man friggin war...

And making fun of religion is just too fun... but I try not to offend people.

[Eli 474]

I agree with Dubu on this one. I am an Atheist, pure and simple. I may not know what "it" is, but I know what "it" isn't.

I believe everyone should believe what they are comfortable with. To each their own. It does not matter what someone's belief or lack of belief is, if they're an asshat, they're an asshat, period. Just because they are an asshat for Jesus or an asshat for nothing at all, it doesn't change the fact.

In my opinion, if you try to -push- anything on someone, you're a douche. Agree to disagree and move on with your life.

[Myk JL 1,731]

If you need to cherry pick your religion then you really need to question yourself on why you even say you are that.

If you think all of that your Messiah's'/God's' doing is peace & love in your holy doctrine then you better have read it all & have a good understanding of what you have accepted.

If all hatred and intolerance are bad no matter what than why even have laws in any shape or form?

Should the good of a religion outweigh the bad of it even when bad had or is currently going on?

And for what reason should anyone accept any "super natural" event or being over testable fact?

-

I'm not a part of any Theist or Atheist religion so I don't need to cherry pick. But I would like to point out that there is no such thing as "Atheism". Because that would imply that all Atheists have some kind of doctrine. All the word Atheist implies is no belief in any Gods.

I don't see how Messiah's'/God's' can be considered loving if they want things like genocide & self mutilation.

I think hatred and intolerance can be good or bad depending on the situation. Hating someone solely on things like skin & sexual orientation are wrong. I don't see however why hatred and intolerance shouldn't be on the individuals who rape or con others.

I don't think the good should outweigh the bad. Pointing out all the Catholic Priests who don't rape over those who do would be to ignore the fact crimes have committed. Even worse so when the Catholic Pope denies that the crimes have happened.

And in no situation should any "super natural" event or being be held over testable fact. Saying something is true just because it makes you feel good doesn't change the fact that if it can't be tested by anyone then it most likely isn't true.

[Kite 3,263]

1st off i want to say i am not religious in any way or form, but i don't dispute the existence of a supreme being and for sake of argument calling that being God

My brother married a really nice woman, who is a Muslim, guess what her family did to her when they found out she got engaged to him ( they weren't having sex either)

they beat her up pretty bad, and stole her engagement ring, and disowned her.

Thats all acceptable under their religious umbrella

So many inhumane acts have happened throughout history because of religion, the middle east where religions meet is a warzone

Northern Island / Republic of Ireland another example

It is easy to point out the flaws in any religion, laugh as the contradictions, the outright dated views on women, family, etc

The amount of double standards, the people i know who pick and choose what part of the religion is ok to follow and what not too for pure selfish reasons such as pre marital sex

But im not closed minded not to see the flip side to religion lots of good has come from religion, there are many good people, Honest good people who are as open minded about others beliefs as you can be, are generally pillars of the community, and my personal belief is that, we should all strive to better ourselves as a species, as a culture, as a human without hurting anyone or the world we live in

we all have a moral compass and know what is right and wrong.

I have very negative views on religion as we see it as a form of control, and among many things, and to outright dispute scientific fact is a joke in itself.

To summarise my views if anyone cares:

if there is a God who is so beyond human, we cannot comprehend God.

How can any person say what is Gods plan, or will, the damn arrogance to claim you can forgive someone on Gods behalf is beyond a joke to me. Ppl who claim to know anything about God is like an Ant trying to explain string theory in Latin while rapping to Brittany spears

Untill an Angel drops from the clouds and says in plain black and white the do's and donts of life, ill live as i always have, treat ppl how i want to be treated. with respect and kindness.

Religion should bring people together, not be used an excuse to drive people apart

PS one thing always bothered me is this: (taking the stance of a person who believes in Jesus and God) How can God allow all this shit to happen? well people are killing each other, not God, also God gave us free will, we used it to develop weapons and machines to destroy this beautiful planet. lastly he sent us his son only 2000 years ago to put on on the path of ''love thy neighbour'', what's 2000 years to an ageless super being, ... a blink of an eye...

Edited June 17, 2010 by Kite

[Eli 474]

I would like to point out that the stereotypical individuals that go out of their way to say there is no such thing as "Atheism" are only beating their own drum as loud as they can. Its a very simple concept. "Atheism" is the state of non-belief, not some ridiculous "doctrine".

Atheism is just a place holder word describing the state of lacking belief in any god. Don't nit-pick.

[Myk JL 1,731]

I would like to point out that the stereotypical individuals that go out of their way to say there is no such thing as "Atheism" are only beating their own drum as loud as they can. Its a very simple concept. "Atheism" is the state of non-belief, not some ridiculous "doctrine".

Atheism is just a place holder word describing the state of lacking belief in any god. Don't nit-pick.

Atheism is just a bad generalization of Atheists. As if somehow we hold the same causes for what some other Atheists have done.

Because (as you know) in order to have any belief system based on anything it requires some form of doctrine.

Its plausible for an individual to grow up without any doctrine. With nothing turning this person Theist this person by default would be considered Atheist. And that person in that situation you could clearly see wouldn't be a part of an Ism.

According to Merriam-Webster an Ism is

1 a distinctive doctrine, cause, or theory

2 an oppressive and especially discriminatory attitude or belief

Atheists as an Ism doesn't even fit the description of Cause that well as the proof of burden isn't on us to prove or disprove Theism. That burden solely lies in Theisms.

And Atheists holding a Theory Of No Gods is an oxymoron as that would imply proof first that there are Gods.

[Eli 474]

Agreed and understood. I was simply pointing out that when most people use the term "Atheism", they are simply adding the "ism" to infer the state of non-believing. Basically, its just "for lack of a better word", not suggesting the true definition of "ism" in conjunction with "atheist" to infer the oxymoron you described. x_X;

[Ladywriter 7,783]

for me a person blah blah blah their religious bullshit at me is the equivalent of standing there screaming racial slurs in my face; equally offensive. Ya might as well type out 10 paragraphs that call me a nigger gook spick. Perhaps that analogy explains how disgusted I feel.

I'm not on an anti religious crusade. I'm on an anti stupid crusade. If you're blowing shit out your asshole with no empirical evidence to back up your claims I'm not going to nominate you for the Nobel. I'm going to question your judgment.

I understand brainwashing happens, that's why people go through de-conversion in therapy.

I am not amused by or patient with people, especially those that have paid for higher education, who do not turn their critical thinking skills on their brand of faith.

We do not live in a simple world, we are tech savvy thanks to science; ya know that thing religions have tried to squash for thousands of years. When ya have to wait until after your dead to publish your scientific findings or the church will cut your head off... not so progressive.

The future my kids have been saddled with is going to be beyond challenging. Human activity has accelerated climate change. Greed has about bankrupt our nation. The environment is in sad ass shape all over the globe. We need people capable of applying critical thinking skills to these problems not sheep that bow down to thousands of years of murder genocide oppression rape and child rape.

If people want to have their faith, I don't care. Don't put it in my face. Don't try to teach that shit to my kids. Keep it out of my government and schools. I don't spend Saturdays or Sundays in temple screaming at people that they're stupid.

I happen to know people are able to come together for a common good without involving the flying spaghetti monster.

Years ago I experienced 'a crisis of faith' as most call it. I poured over religious texts, studied the crescent of the time Christianity emerged, looked and looked and looked for a single shred of evidence to support the shit my momz shoved down my throat the entire time I was growing up. I didn't find what I was looking for I found the opposite. Jesus is a rip off of a variety of religions just like Noah is a rip off of Gilgamesh and there is overwhelming evidence to prove it. If the faithful spent their time looking at history instead of prostrating themselves before their mentally ill deity (love incarnate that wants us to kill people including our own children to prove our loyalty-that's fucking sick) they might come to the same conclusion I have. Religion is disgusting and offensive.

There is nothing anyone can say to me that will defend religion. I took the time to do the research.

[Pchan 5,162]

Lady vs Religion ...

...

Edited June 18, 2010 by Godgrave

[Ladywriter 7,783]

more like Lady vs stupid

~le sigh

[Kite 3,263]

i think it is important to point out the difference in being religious and having faith

Most people who have faith and believe in something greater dont necessary believe blindly religious doctrine

[Ladywriter 7,783]

most ppl who call themselves christians are actually agnostic

to be christian muslim or jew you believe that your scripture is the word of god

reject that and you reject your religion

[Eli 474]

Well said.

[Sledgstone 8,672]

I was a practicing Lutheran for the first 20 years of my life. I was raised as a kid to attend church every week, sunday school, a week or two of christian summer school a year, catechism classes, etc. I believe in god. I don't attend church anymore. I do not need to attend a church to fulfill any religious obligations or to further my knowledge on christianity. Many church sermons started becoming very similar to me over the years, preaching only the good parts of the bible to promote a better way of living. And that was fine but theres a large majority of churches that do a different way of preaching.

Churches are exempt from taxes as they are religious organizations, however, if a church preaches any political views they no longer have a tax exemption. Many huge churches do not have tax exemptions and they preach their political views into their sermons. These churches like to preach some of the darker parts of the bible to reinforce their own political views through fear and with religious guidance as to how they can change their community or nation through their religious actions and votes. This is not fine. These churches acquire huge fan bases of people that want to take their religion and force their views onto others through political votes, political sponsorships of candidates, etc.

The United States is supposed to have 'separation of church and state'. But this is not the case. Far too many political figures state their own personal religious beliefs to justify their positions on subjects or when casting different votes. To me that is outrageous and the epitome of someone forcing their religion down my throat. It also sets a horrible precedent. What if someday christianity is no longer the majority religion in the United States? What if islam becomes a majority and their religious views are implemented into our government? What if the president doesn't say "God be with us all" and instead references Allah? Wouldn't the now minority of christians in america get pissed off? Before any of this happens, the US should follow its own constitution and separate religion from government. But until that happens, christianity is getting a bad rap because its seen as the religious domination of our government. And if a religion is dominating a government, then that is a form of oppression.

[Myk JL 1,731]

kjFeq7k0B14&playnext_from=TL&videos=8wo1T4SU2Sc&feature=sub

[Myk JL 1,731]

AyOCjo4wU4I&feature

[slippers 3,168]

It's your choice, and as long as it's one you've made for yourself because you've thought about it and not just because it was pushed on you or that's what your parents believe, then I have no problem with that.

I think it really depends on one's personal beliefs, and the nature of the person. I respect the concept of a child being given the right to choose his/ her religion rather than taking the religion of their parents/ guardians. At the same time, I also respect the concept of the child accepting the religion of his parents/ guardians, whether it's a forced action or not, it's the way of life.

lots of good points made just want to add my thoughts.

i think ppl in western countries rebel against their parents' religion more than ppl in eastern countries due to cultural difference..> pushing of importance of individualism in the west (dubird's point) vs respecting tradition/parents wishes in the east (gg's point), not always the case but in the end it's parents' upbringing, culture, and influence have lot to do with person's current belief system. i faced both of worlds growing up as roman catholic(because of my grandma) and when my mother(was agnostic) became protestant, she tried to force it on me at one point but she let me be and then I converted to protestantism on my own years later. interesting that as of now fastest growing religion is islam. 20,000 americans become muslim every year despite media, religious, family, and cultural opposition. agree that if you push hard, it'll backfire.

A list of numbers of people claiming their religion.

Christianity: 2.1 billion

Islam: 1.5 billion

Secular/Nonreligious/Agnostic/Atheist: 1.1 billion

Hinduism: 900 million

Chinese traditional religion: 394 million

Buddhism: 376 million

primal-indigenous: 300 million

African Traditional & Diasporic: 100 million

Sikhism: 23 million

Juche: 19 million

Spiritism: 15 million

Judaism: 14 million

Baha'i: 7 million

Jainism: 4.2 million

Shinto: 4 million

Cao Dai: 4 million

Zoroastrianism: 2.6 million

Tenrikyo: 2 million

Neo-Paganism: 1 million

Unitarian-Universalism: 800 thousand

Rastafarianism: 600 thousand

Scientology: 500 thousand

[Pchan 5,162]

Zoroastrianism: 2.6 million

When did that happen?! I'm surprised we're that many

[slippers 3,168]

^ have faith..more for your sexy zoroastrian women who can't wait to be your bride

[Ladywriter 7,783]

propose tonight!